The Biggest Self-Inflicted Traps I’ve Seen While Coaching 150+ Business Owners with Jenna Dillon

Host Chris Foster talks with executive coach Jenna Dillon of the Executive Performance Institute for Coaching about the traps business owners can place themselves in. Jenna shares lessons from coaching leaders on burnout, perfectionism, imposter syndrome, and slowing down enough to lead effectively.

Note: The supplied episode transcript has been formatted for readability; its spoken wording has not been fact checked.

Transcript

Chris: Well, all right, well Jenna Dillon, welcome in to the Everywhere Small Business Podcast.

Jenna: Thank you so much. Happy to be here.

Chris: it's great having you. Tell us a bit about yourself and your business.

Jenna: Sure. So I am an executive coach. I've been doing this for over ten years now. And I have a company called Executive Performance Institute for Coaching, where essentially myself and a bunch of coaches are working one on one with chief officers and business owners and really with companies around the country at anywhere from small businesses to large entities. so we've been specializing in doing very high level executive coaching with a high amount of business acumen as well as emotional intelligence. And we have different specializations. One in particular that's been a lot very highly relevant as of late is that in ADHD.

Chris: Fantastic. So I gotta ask you, how did you fall into coaching? Did coaching fall into you or did you fall into coaching?

Jenna: Gosh, that's an interesting way to look at it. I might say like I it I kind of was led there. You know, I'm typically a self-starter and when I'm interested and excited about something, I figure out how to go there and make it happen. but I never knew executive coaching existed. and I wish I did up even as early as high school when I was determining like where to go to school. So I'll give you the very abridged version. of my journey up until this point, but I actually started in school studying two very different tracks. I was a professional dancer, which most people get surprised by, but I'm very highly creative. And and then I also studied business management because I knew I wasn't going to be teaching and doing dance forever. so that being said, I after my dance career for seven years, I wanted to pursue a second career in what I thought was business management. I was living in Chicago doing my dance career for several years and then moved to Los Angeles, knowing there would probably be a ton of opportunity and it would be a great change for me to get perspective and just what would make me happy for myself in like building and designing my life. joined a mastermind group soon after moving to LA and basically was really transparent saying, People are starting to talk with me about their struggles at work and their challenges with their like either. call direct colleagues, their leaders, etc. And I want to figure out how to put a practice together. I still want to be my own boss, but I don't know what I'm doing. I don't even know what call it because I'm brand new. I got this like business management education. Help. And somebody instantly said, you should hire a business coach. Never heard of that before until then. And so days later I happened to, this is where I say happen to, I don't know if it's a coincidence. I don't know if I believe in coincidences.

Chris: Ha ha ha.

Jenna: But I soon after met a business coach, hired my first coach, and within like three or four meetings, having my first coach as their client, I was like, I'm waiting for the shoe to drop. Like this actually exists as a career. This is so similar but better to what I was thinking about doing from these like mastermind conversations. So that was kind of how I found it. what I realized when I was with that first coach was that.

Chris: Hm.

Jenna: Parts of coaching, or how could I say this? Like I had learned skills and different competencies that I thought and saw really complemented what now is called executive coaching. And so I just remember thinking to myself, if I got formal training in this, I really, really think I could do this, you know? So anyway, I found coaching or it found me. You could look at it either way. And then I got I started getting formal training with an executive coaching firm. So that's the start of it.

Chris: That's fantastic. And when did you launch first of all, the name is awesome. It's it's long when you say it, but if you condense it, it's Epic, which I love. The acronym is EPIC. so that's cool. but when did you actually launch Epic as your own business?

Jenna: Thank you.

Jenna: Yeah, the acronym. Thank you. Yes, thank you. Yes.

Jenna: In twenty twenty. So right when the pandemic, little did I know, right when the pandemic was starting to happen.

Chris: Mm.

Chris: You know what though? Jenna, that's probably great timing because so many of these executives or business owners were trying to figure out what to do either not just with their business but also with their team. In certain states there was like in California for example, we couldn't go in the office and everyone was working remote and yikes. That's a tough thing for an owner of a business to handle.

Jenna: It was and it really the first year and a half of that time, like from the time we s I launched the company and we started our services and working with our clients, I learned so much of what to do and what not to do as a business owner. and talk about learning how to be Agile, while there's multiple stakeholders that you're kind of constantly like talking with, and that kind of everyone's like, what do I do right now? There's this thing called the pandemic, you know. So I learned a lot. And to be totally honest, I'll just come out and say this because I figure it might come up eventually. within that year and a half, I hit a huge burnout. and and that really became that experience, even though it was not fun and pleasant, became monumental.

Chris: Yeah.

Jenna: to me uncovering and doing so much work on myself and my business, to further help me, as in essence, even help my clients. So yeah, I'll say that.

Chris: You know, isn't it interesting that, you know, we learned from another woman, CEO Stephanie Betters. For her the obstacle was the way to figure out how to actually create the business. And for you, it it seems like that was the case of COVID, right? Where you hit a burnout, but how did that burnout or that experience transform how you looked at the business and pushed it into its new place?

Jenna: I think there's some of the lessons that I learned and then just the perspective of what I was experiencing. So, meaning I was very determined and very enthusiastic and very like engaged with my business and passionate. You know, I didn't realize that being motivated in those ways would lead to burnout. I thought it would be motivated by like

Chris: Hmm.

Jenna: when you're super overwhelmed and super stressed and so and it's like, well, your nervous system can still be on high alert, even if you're not consciously thinking to yourself, I'm overwhelmed, I'm exhausted, I'm stressed. Right. I was kind of like, okay, what do I need? Okay, what can I do? Okay, how can we keep the business going? Like, you know, like, okay, what's the challenge now? You know? And I was like, we're gonna do this. Like, you know, I had no idea that one could burn out doing things that way. and then secondly is I didn't realize how extreme of a burnout one could have, to the point where, you know, you cannot truly function. Like having the experience of being burnt out, where I remember like, and this was not recognizable in my work ethic for any point in my life until I hit this burnout. With I could come to my computer and start doing work and at maybe. After three hours, I was done. And and I had to be done because my body would have, I would have this like out-of-body experience. Now it's called the term is called disassociating once I went to therapy. But but I would disassociate and I would just start crying and it felt like an out-of-body experience. But the crying, the tears were like, I'm exhausted. I can't, I can't actually work anymore. I'm done after like three hours of work.

Chris: Okay.

Chris: Hmm.

Jenna: You know, and that was so unrecognizable to go from not ever identifying that way. Like I was always a high performer, you know. So going through some of those experiences of going, one could burn themselves out through this way, and this is what burnout can become was really eye-opening, you know, and then how to heal, how to recover from that. And essentially you have to re Like you have to change your behavior on how to rethink and do things differently so you don't end up there again. You know?

Chris: Sure. And I I have to believe it's given you insight to help your clients, right? Because I might

Jenna: my gosh. So much so. Like and that's where I'm so much so, you know, where you can start I can start spotting signs where I'm like, I wonder if they if this is impacting them in a way they don't realize. And then ask them, you know, versus assuming it does and then go, I would watch out there. Like, you know, I don't really prescribe or recommend. But it gives me a whole different kind of perspective where I can pose things to questions and have them check themselves, you know.

Chris: Hm, that's very interesting because, you know, for small business owners, ones that we've talked to feel like really lonely. Like

Jenna: Yes.

Chris: you know, that they are the ones making the decisions. It's a lonely position. And, you know, for an owner it's probably pretty hard to even recognize burnout symptoms in themselves if they feel like they're kind of getting stretched afraid. They just figure that's just the normal state of operations as a business owner trying to do all and be all for everyone.

Jenna: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting you say it that way, Chris, because I talk about how there can be a few different traps that business owners can unintentionally put themselves in because no one who wants to be trapped? Nobody, right? But one of the traps I talk about is, you know, they're used to going at such a fast pace and they assume because they are a top leader or the business owner that they can't afford to slow down. Because if they slowed while they're might be exhausted, if they slowed down, that would mean the detriment of them and their role, their teams, and ultimately the whole organization's success. So it's a trap. You don't get to slow down, but you have to stay exhausted and you have to keep the business going.

Chris: Yeah, no, that I get that. In fact, what's interesting is I was writing some questions and I even wrote down what are the traps that folks get into and that's one of them because I have to I would I guess I'll just ask you. For a small business owner, versus maybe that's been established for a while and they're trying to grow, that's a different environment than someone who's a startup and starting a business, which is a different environment than a CEO.

Jenna: Yeah.

Jenna: That's

Chris: of an established organization that they're moving into. They might not be founder versus a founder, right? Who's beginning something and figuring out what their role is as they move across their own journeys. each one of them has their own experiences and their own roles. as you coach and you s do you see certain patterns that repeat themselves in these different roles?

Jenna: Yes, absolutely. I'll share some symptoms that might be shown or people might relate to on the surface, and then I'll kind of talk about perhaps a lineage of things that would be the pattern. So there's imposter syndrome, there's perfectionism, there is hypervigilance and if

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Jenna: You don't know what that if people that are listening don't know what that is. It's like this intense view of making sure nothing falls through the cracks and you're like hyperly looking and like intensely looking to make sure things don't fall through the cracks or like any little detail, you know. so there's that hyper vigilance. there can be like they set how do I say this? Like they set such high standards for themselves that aren't the same as other people, like the standards they set to other people. you know, so that can happen. so those are some starting I'll I'll I will also say the heroes complex. Have you heard that term before?

Chris: I have, but please explain it.

Jenna: Yeah, the heroes complex is where, and again, to give people the benefit of the doubt, they might not be thinking this and they might just kind of unintentionally and consciously get into this habit. But the hero complex is where they start making these assumptions, they have to be the problem solver or they have to be the doer and be the hero to fix the solution. Rather than their identity can change or the way they view their value can change to how they develop. others to solve problems. So they might not be the hero, but they develop mini me's, if you will. Right. But that's like the the opposite of the hero complex. The hero complex is when you're the hero and you're the one solving the thing, the issues all the way all the time. so that's like how things might surface. patterns and when I when I think of patterns from when you asked, I I get into some like psychology with my clients on

Chris: All right.

Jenna: what's their way of thinking or behaving that I start seeing, right? So we talked about the trap that we mentioned earlier. Another thing that I find is while they might still be feeling exhausted, if you keep following that kind of breadcrumb or pattern of the trap we mentioned, where they're exhausted but they can't slow down, it can start to turn into this apathy or this very like like they stop caring. They start being pa stop being passionate about what they're doing and they almost think to themselves like well what's the point of continuing to like grow because they're just they're it's like they're almost fed up with being so tired and feeling trapped right so it can start to go into that then there's another pattern that I see that can be prone to any of these surface level things and I have a lot of compassion

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Chris: Mm.

Chris: Ya

Jenna: And empathy around this archetype, that, and it's gonna sound very different than these other two traps. These are the people who, for most of their life, if not their whole life, not just their career, they are seen and viewed as this person who is used to accomplishing things other people don't. It's their normal. And so they'll hear things like, Well, of course you did it, Chris. You're Chris. You know? And and then what happens.

Chris: Mm.

Jenna: Over the course of time is like they don't feel seen and they don't feel understood because what's actually can be happening inside is they have this gnaw that they could actually accomplish so much more, but they don't quite know how to tap into that. And nobody really understands that and gets that.

Chris: You know, it's it's interesting. You that gets back to that loneliness comment we made earlier where there's almost a place where folks can't be vulnerable if they're at the top, where they recognize that they don't know certain things. And you mentioned the hero complex where the best thing that a leader can do is to groom their team so that their team become a bunch of heroes, right? So that the whole team is a team of heroes and it's not all falling on that individual. you know, so when you when you start talking and coaching with these folks, I mean you've seen I've seen on your website, you've worked with folks at DreamWorks and NASA and McDonalds and Johnson and Johnson and also small business owners and entrepreneurs. I have to believe that the some of the challenges of someone at DreamWorks might seem on the surface to be different than a small business owner, but really they're

Jenna: Yeah.

Chris: But really it's the same ch it's the same challenge that they're facing. It's just a different scale.

Jenna: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. A different scale. And granted, there might be different like business occumen knowledge at larger companies or like complexity of situation like understanding like, you know, foresight at a more complex level or strategy at a more complex level, etc. But yes, like ultimately, and of course there's always exceptions, but we're just speaking generally, is there can be so many similarities, you know?

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Jenna: It's like one of the things I find the number one leadership challenge most people face is they drastically underestimate what they're capable of. Now there can be an exception, especially I mentioned like a specialization on ADHD. there can be an exception with some people who actually are diagnosed and not self-diagnosing, where they tend to overestimate out of their impulsivity and enthusiasm and excitedness.

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Jenna: So there is like a s a category, if you will, where that can be an exception, but majority of leaders tend to underestimate what they or even their teams are capable of. And why might that be? I mean, very simpli simply said, they are used to going at this fast pace all the time that even for them to slow down and think more strategically could speed them up to go faster. Right. And that's part of where the work I do comes in.

Chris: That's interesting. They underestimate what they're capable of, yet these are high performing and high achieving people anyway. do you think that's part of that drive for entrepreneurs, for business leaders and business owners, where there's a this insatiable need to to keep growing and there's like, you know, the coal that goes into the fire of the belly, right? That to keep going be and that's why they might underestimate what they can do.

Jenna: Yeah, I absolutely think it's like, you know, part of me, and this can h really land in people's gut in a number of ways, but it's, you know, sometimes me asking a business owner if I can get to like layers deep with them and at one point just ask them, you know, who is this really for? What are you really trying to prove right now? They might not have like an answer. You know, like, or it might be, well, like I have to keep doing it. And and they don't realize how their identity of how they value themselves or this how they gauge their value to themselves is wrapped up in the success of their company. And they don't know how to not see that differently. Or rather, they've trained themselves, perhaps unconsciously and intentionally, to to see it that way. Right.

Chris: Yeah, that's a big ask though, I think, to ask a business owner to separate him or herself from the business that they've owned and and managed and founded and grown. we were talking with a wonderful business owner. And she has an audiology business in Bainbridge Island. She's grown it over the last sixteen years. She can't separate herself from the business. She is the business that business is her. Her name is Jessica Alban. And you know, the business has grown along with her children, right? So it's kind of like this complete intertwining of her life and her business and her identity. I think that's a really hard ass to ask a business owner to separate themselves out. And is is that is that a good thing to separate or is it a bad thing? I don't know I'm not putting any judgment on, I don't know. but I would think that that makes complete sense that a business owner's identity is the business.

Jenna: Mm-hmm. No, and I can understand why it they view it that way. And I'm specifically pointing to where it might not be helpful for them because it leads them to constantly be on this ham what feels like a hamster wheel where they feel stuck, they can't get traction, or even if results are showing traction, it's never enough. They have to keep going. You know, like and you have to keep going but faster. Or you know what, you'll slow down, but you have to still progress. You know, it's like

Chris: Course.

Chris: Yeah.

Chris: Sure.

Jenna: You know, because if and there there can be in their defense, part of that reason is because they'll be bored otherwise, you know, like you know, and that that's an interesting thing. It's like, okay, so how we relate to slowing down, how we relate to being bored or disengaged, is interesting. So I I don't want to get too like philosophical here, but my my kind of overarching thing that I I guess in mentioning with this

Chris: Ha ha

Jenna: point in our conversation is how you view something is how you're it's going to change the way that it impacts you. So when I see someone put their identity in their business, there can be limits to how they're framing it that way. Versus as another just example to kick it around, what if we viewed a business, and this is gonna sound weird, but just kind of go with me for a second, like its own person, like it's like a like a child to a parent.

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Jenna: What age is the business? Are they a toddler where they depend on you and need you to survive? Or are they at like college level where they can start doing things on their own and the business can start running without you? You that's a little different. You see?

Chris: A hundred percent. I I I I I track with you completely on that. I think that, you know, business is kind of like a marriage is its own thing, it's its own entity. You feed and nurture the business. It exists as as its own living, breathing organism, right? And and and so, you know, as the owner do you get to the place where you've grown this business to its adulthood and then it's thriving and you're nurturing it and supporting it as an adult, but it's more

Jenna: Yes.

Chris: moving on its own, right? I I c I completely track and and and understand that. And I think it's different too, right? You don't measure it necessarily in ages, because, you know, a three-year-old business that's a technology startup could be different than a fifteen year old HVAC business, right? Yeah. No, I get no but but I I understand what you're saying. And and the idea what I what I find so interesting about also what you do is, you know, curating this business as itself

Jenna: Right.

Jenna: Of course. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris: allows you to see if if you get some distance from it, it probably allows you to manage it a little bit better because you can see it more objectively rather than just part of your own body.

Jenna: Yes, well and even even to add to that a little bit, the core values of a company can be different than your own personal core values. Right? Like news flash, like mind blow. Okay. And so for instance, if you start noticing as a business owner, you mean the p the listeners, you know, not just you, Chris, but if you start noticing as a business owner.

Chris: Hmm.

Jenna: That you like going at this fast pace, but it's actually not helpful for the rest of the leadership team or the rest of the organization to go at that pace. Then perhaps that means, okay, do you want to start another business while having this one? Does that mean the and so you know, does that mean how does that mean that you're going to manage you? You know, versus manage the business, right? Or like I could even take another angle at this when you're

Chris: Mm.

Jenna: running the business, let's say how are you gauging the success of the business? Is it based like you know, I think of I was just having this conversation with a close friend of mine in about marriages, but it's the same thing with the life cycle and lifespan of a business. What are you constituting makes it a success or not? Is it because of how it ends, quote unquote, if it ends? Because I look at like business life cycles or even like marriages or whatever. And is it is it really like let's say you had a 30-year run and there was a business that became industry known, but you know what? AI came in and the industry is no longer. Does that mean that business failed? No, it doesn't, right?

Chris: No. No. It's it's its journey might have naturally ended and and if if businesses are here to employ people, if for thirty years if it employed people, then that was a very successful business in and of itself.

Jenna: Yes. And so I think it's I think that's something for business owners to keep in mind is not just how the organizational values can be different from their own, but how are they viewing the success of a company, right? Like and through their eyes. Or then how are they viewing them in their role with their values being successful, whether that's with this business or any other part of their life, right? Whether that being

Chris: Of their life.

Jenna: multiple businesses, whether that means their work life and their family life or their spiritual life. I mean anything, right? Like it's like I I learned how much I wasn't valuing, I thought I was valuing self-care, didn't realize that I unintentionally wasn't until I hit a huge burnout because I was giving so much to my work life. Right. And so for me to really stay aligned to my core values is something I learned how I wasn't, right?

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Chris: Mm.

Jenna: So it's it's just an example, right? Like, but what we deem as success in our eyes matters, which is why I was saying I don't want to get too philosophical where I might lose people in like an esoteric conversation, but the viewers can think about what are you deeming as success? Because the factors and the values that you have are so key to not just identify, but to keep them in mind and not lose sight of them. because that's how you can stay true to yourself, right?

Chris: Sure. No, I think that's a really interesting question as to what you constitute as a successful business, right? Because there could be successful businesses that hit revenue goals for either shareholders or CEOs or board of directors, but the culture is miserable for the organization and the people. You could have a very successful, happy culture of an organization that doesn't grow very much, but everyone around that is like, that's okay. you know, you could be in a situation where, you know, productivity boosts morale and the idea is that if you're not growing then you're shrinking. So you want to be growing, but you want to be growing in a way that's healthy for everybody. There's a really interesting Netflix culture deck that was put out on SlideShare, which so it's public. So if anyone Googles SlideShare Netflix culture deck original, they said that they they didn't want brilliant jerks.

Jenna: Hmm. Yep. Yep.

Chris: as part of their culture, right? These these total brilliant people who were total asshats and they were like, We're not gonna have As much value as they might bring, it's too disruptive to our culture. So we're not gonna do that. you know, so so I ask you when we talk about success of the business, Jenna, how do you determine whether or not your business is being successful? What measurements do you put in place for your own epic culture you know, coaching business that you you say, this has been a successful year or this has been successful or not.

Jenna: Yeah, I appreciate the question. Thank you. I look at how I get motivated. And while measurements can like like financial and other like numeric measurements can be very helpful to track progress, it doesn't motivate me to grow. impact does. So I start at towards the end of each year before the new year. I this might sound so cliche because I'm a coach, but I don't care.

Chris: Hmm.

Chris: Nice, there we go, come on.

Jenna: I do a vision board. Right. But it's it's yeah, like it's not it's not a typical what some people think of as like a collage of photos. I get real specific on like what metrics and targets I'm going to put up there because they're in line with the ways I'm motivated. So I might put, for instance, a percentage of my revenue growth, because if I put the revenue, it's not gonna matter as much to me. versus like the percentage because I know then in another goal I'll put how many people I want to be impacting next year I'm working with or what size companies, how many employees in those companies on average do I want to be working with. That kind of stuff excites me, right? So I put measurements or metrics and targets together that align to my motivators because I want a visual representation where I can look at it every day and go, Yeah, I'm up for that. I want to go there.

Chris: That that I think also is maybe it's a lesson that you learned from burnout and it's your antidote to burnout.

Jenna: Yes. Yeah, it absolutely is one. I also learned in that vein, I'll share another thing that I do or rather don't do anymore on my vision board as I'm very careful on how many metrics to put up there. Because I'll if I put too many up, I will like start being hyper focused or even hyper vigilant on like, okay, we have to do this and this and this and I have to track this too and I have to track this two and then all of a sudden I'm like spreading myself so thin. You know? And I'll lose sight of trusting my own self to figure out how to do it, you know? Versus I have to I have to figure this out, you know? Yeah.

Chris: Mm.

Chris: Right. N so when you put your vision board together, do you is that collaborative with your team or do you do it solo and present? How does that work?

Jenna: I appreciate that. I I do it for me because it's something that I visualize. and I I again take into my account not just my motivators, but my values and not just what do I see the business becoming, but what's my role in it? Those are two separate questions. Right. So my vision board will represent it'll have the company goals that I think are helpful for me to stay, keep tabs on, you know, every time I look at it. And mine. What's my place? What's my role? In order for the company to grow there, what does that mean of who I'm developing in what ways or what processes might we have to speed up and save time? You know, like all I kind of asked myself those questions. what I present to my team won't be my vision board because there's things in there of like how I'm gonna manage me, my life, my role, not just my work life roll role, right?

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Chris: Okay.

Jenna: It kind of encompasses like a 360, if you will. so what I present to my team is specific to the organization and gives them direction, you know. Similarly, when you think of like a change management process, you know, if people if a big company's scaling and they put a strategy together, it's not in the best interest of the leadership team to go and tell all their team members underneath them. Here's the full strategy, right? So so I don't do that with my team, right? Like so 'cause like sometimes you're gonna either lose them or they're gonna get freaked out or anxious. You don't know what's gonna ensue, right? So I don't just shit present my like vision board, you know. You know, not that I think it's gonna overwhelm them, but it's just not necessary, you know, it doesn't apply to them. Yeah.

Chris: Right. Right. Here's

Chris: Yeah. Yeah, no, I I get that. this the woman Stephanie Betters from Left Main REI talked about that where she said, you know, she shields her employees from some of her stresses and anxieties where she doesn't want to pass those on. Same way a parent doesn't put the stress of their own lives onto the kids, right? 'Cause it's just something that you and that's why sometimes the business owner can be a lonely role. As you manage your team, first of all, how many folks do you have on your team? That's that's fantastic. and as as you s it's a small team, it's right, it's a small but nimble team that you guys are connecting. Are part of your goals and your vision board to hire more people, or do you like the size where you are?

Jenna: I have four people on my bench and then I have an executive assistant. Yeah.

Jenna: That's a great question. And you know, I'm actually, I feel like there are a lot of factors at play that I'm in the process of considering. How would I want, I can see the company growing in a number of different ways. And I'm in the process of doing some research and development to decide what does that look like in the long term, like in three to five years from now, even, is what I would call long term versus next year, you know? because I can see

Chris: Yeah.

Jenna: different avenues of like based off of our unique value proposition and based off of where demand is. Like I could see us growing in probably five different ways right now. So I don't wanna be I learned the hard way when I started my business that I took on way too much at once and COVID happened. That I I wanna be more mindful and slow down to think through how to grow. So I don't fully have that answer yet 'cause I'm in that stage right now.

Chris: Yeah, that's cool, but it sounds like you're being very intentional and knowing how to pace, you know, how to scale. so I guess one question that I would have for the last, you know, X number of years that you've been doing is there's a coaching aspect, which is working with your clients. Then there's the business management aspect of actually running Epic. for either or both of those, what has surprised you most about this journey?

Jenna: I'll I'll answer for both. one of the things that's surprised me the most about the coaching side is that my I I like I mentioned earlier, I'm a creative and I didn't realize until I started working with coaches and then ended up like training and develop coaches how my coaching style was unique and how based off of my creativity I was able to be creative with coaching frameworks and paradigms in ways that I thought everybody was doing and I learned that that wasn't the case.

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Jenna: So it was neat for me to see that. And you know, I have a little bit of a background in getting formally trained in teaching and like pedagogy and andragogy. And so I was able to use those skills to even help train and develop coaches to in around kind of some of the coaching style that I brought to the table. So that was kind of an unexpected pleasant surprise where I got to almost have a mirror put up in a way that was surprising, you know?

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Jenna: The another thing that was a surprise, I think, as a like running the business is I had kind of assumed, and I I have so much more respect for my clients, especially the business owners. because while I had been like my own boss when I was in my first career as a professional dancer, it is not the same as having a team. Like it is not, it is not, you know.

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Chris: Yeah. When you when you have payroll and you're like, my God, I've got responsibility.

Jenna: Yes, you know, and I do realize that I was kind of thrown I kind of was thrown with the pandemic or or thrown well how do I say that? Like the pandemic was thrown at me, you know, if you will, and I'm like, I have figure out how to navigate this, how do I do that? And my, you know, business advisory team was like, well, we've never experienced a pandemic, so it's not like we can tell you how to navigate this, you know. So I was very surprised by the amount of decisions I had to make at what frequency.

Chris: Ha ha ha.

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Jenna: I was very surprised, like I figured I would have to wear several different hats. I was surprised how draining it was for me to transition from one hat to a next to the next to the next to the next. Like whether it was doing bookkeeping, whether it was now we're doing strategic meetings with the team, whether now I'm doing a coaching session, now I'm doing now I'm talking to my assistant and we're talking about the operation side and now we're doing you know, I would have like six or seven or more meetings a day and Each of them might be different and I'm like, Whoa, this is this is a lot. I didn't expect me to be drained by that transition frequency, if that makes sense. Yeah.

Chris: Hm. Yeah, that that does. I mean, that's things that you can't prepare for. so I guess one question that I ask is it's almost I mean, you have like this meta role, right? Because you're coaching business owners and leaders. You're coaching your team, which are coaches of business owners and leaders. You yourself are a business owner and leader. Right? So it's like a mirror looking at a mirror, looking at a mirror, like this infinite

Jenna: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes. Yes.

Chris: Game. so the you see blind spots in executives all the time. A I would say for a small business owner in particular, what you think the most common blind spots are, and I guess then reflexively, what do you think your blind spots are and and how do you reconcile that and how do you learn from the coaching that you're doing?

Jenna: Yeah, I might answer those questions in reverse order. so how I try to prevent blind spots happening for myself is I have a coach. you know, and I happen yeah, I yeah, like well I have and I happen to have two right now because they're very different. Like one's more like personal oriented and one's more business oriented. but

Chris: Of course.

Chris: Yet another meta level.

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Jenna: I mean, even though I'm a coach and I'd like to think because I love what I do and I want to keep hone honing in and fine-tuning my skills, that I'm not bad at it. I'm pretty decent at it, but that doesn't mean I'm done, you know. Like, so in fact, that's the trap to have blind spots. So I make sure I have continue ed, both from me having my own coach or coaches right now, to even like being in continue ed classes and courses, which I'm in on as well. so Then to answer your question around blind spots, I see what are my blind spots or what I see in my clients? Is that in b bus small business owners?

Chris: Yeah. Yeah, what what what what do you so you see yourself as a p these these blind spots that you see, and then you have a coach and you're coaching a bunch do you see there's that blind spot again. I've seen that before.

Jenna: Mm-hmm.

Jenna: Yeah, yeah. What starts to happen in in and this is any coaching session. It can happen with me as a client with my coach, 'cause I've been coached for over the years. I've I've always had a coach since before becoming a coach. So what starts to happen the more the client is acclimated to coaching, and this is like kind of the ultimate goal contextually in a meeting, is you have somebody who's the coach.

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Jenna: And then the client and the coach are coaching them together. Like they're starting to coach themselves while having this now think partner to also coach them. Does that make sense? So, and that's in the context. So, you know, because you start building a certain amount of awareness or you start training yourself how to look and catch blind spots, you know? so

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Chris: Sure.

Jenna: Anyway, like I hope I'm not speaking too conceptual. Some of the blind spots that I'll see in small business owners. so there's I I will speak generally because I find that there's different kind of archetypes of business owners. but one is they have a they're very impulsive sounds like a negative connotation, but I don't mean it that way. Like they go at a fast pace is often what I say, and they are very enthusiastic. And they're almost like a heart on legs, they have the best intentions, you know. and they don't necessarily realize how there's opportunities missed to bring agency to their leadership team or collaboration and start developing your leadership team to make some of these decisions because it can help the company grow in the long run, you know, where they might unintentionally, you know, if you follow that.

Chris: Mm.

Jenna: pattern of behavior, while the intention isn't bad, it can essentially cause them to have the hero complex, you know? or the leadership team andor the leadership team can resent them because they're making decisions too quickly or they're exhausted because they can't keep up with the amount of decisions that are being made by them. Or when they are asked to speak

Chris: Mm.

Jenna: up and voice an opinion or give s some contribution of input, it's crickets. And it might not be c be because they don't care. It might be because you haven't trained them to think like this.

Chris: Sure, you haven't helped them or maybe brought them up to successfully put ideas out there because the owner is so fixated on his or her ideas if it doesn't align with his or her vision of what's happening and someone says, Hey, what about this? Or like, No, no, no, no, this is what we're focused on. And then of course they're like, Well, why bother? I'm not gonna toss out these ideas and that idea of bringing agency I think is so important because you know, we one of the phrases that they use is role duplication, right? A business owner wants to duplicate their role so that someone else can do that job so that the business owner can think about other things. that's a great blind spot to to to to highlight. I do love your phrase heart on legs. I think that's beautiful. That's perfect. I think that's marvelous. so talk to me about the value of coaching, right? If I'm an athlete

Jenna: Thank you. Yeah.

Chris: There's a measurable value in a coach paying attention to you, seeing what you could do, seeing the potential that's there. we know that athletes get better with coaches. And to your point about kind of that coach executive session where the the client is actually then coaching themselves, the same is true with an athlete. An athlete learns, okay, this is what I should be doing. Maybe I should be doing this, and they gain greater awareness because they're putting the coaches back. thoughts and this, you know, what he taught they're talking about in their head. but clearly you find value in coaching. As a dancer, you had dance instructors, you had dance you know, co coaches, you were, you know, either in a professional company where there were coaches there artistically, physically. you are a coach. You have a coach. You're surrounded by coaches. You're surrounded by coaches. So so tell me about that value.

Jenna: All the things. Yes.

Chris: Like and and and what it's done for you personally and professionally.

Jenna: Yeah. I I I will out and say I'm going to I notice that there's a lot of jargon around coaching that I'm going to use different words. So like I'll give you like for instance people will talk about like limiting beliefs and creating a roadmap and I feel like some of that jargon's kind of vague. So I'm gonna try to be a little bit more real and succinct. And I want you to like challenge me, Chris, if if you want more like, you know, detail or clarity. so if I'm looking at me as a person first, rather than like results or anything like that, I've redefined who I am from it. I didn't even realize that I wasn't fully

Chris: You got it.

Chris: Hm.

Jenna: seeing and recognizing parts in myself that really mattered to see. and then to be able to not just see them, but own them was a whole other step. Like really own and absorb, you know, especially if there's like I I call myself a recovering perfectionist. Right? Like if there's certain tendencies and traits of like, residues coming in. I'm not seeing a certain part of myself, you know, that's important for me to own. I just haven't trained myself or gotten used to or comfortable owning a truth of like a strength that I have, or you know, and owning it doesn't mean you're proud, like arrogant, proud or being prideful of reality is actually quite healthy. And I think that leaders, business owners especially, can minimize truths in themselves. They just don't know how to like own that in a way that

Chris: Mm.

Jenna: they might be fearful it will come across as arrogant. But so that's kind of speaking to the human self, if you will, like me as a person, what I've gained. and that is, I will say, like the the ripple effect of that has changed the types of friendships I have, the types of relationships that I have to my family, the types of relationships that I have and build with colleagues and How I build networking relationships, I mean everything. I start training people, training people is not the word, but like I'm saying that tongue in cheek. Like how I want people to treat me changes. So thus then the relationships change and the people could change, right? but everything then changes from that, or it can, right? Like how I see it. So so that's what I mean by like I have gotten to have the choice.

Chris: Sure.

Jenna: Of not just redefining myself, but choosing how I want to redefine myself. And that's powerful. That's real powerful. you know, I feel so honored and privileged that it's truly my Tuesday that I get to have life-changing conversations with people. on my as my Tuesday that some people never in their life get to have, you know? so there's that side of it now.

Chris: Yeah, yeah.

Jenna: If you look at the content of our conversations, it's not like we're like crying in every session and talking about your worth, you know, like but you start connecting the dots of how to start making changes in your behavior and how you're gonna be interacting and engaging with people, how you're gonna be processing and thinking through things differently and ultimately making decisions differently, how that then impacts and has a ripple effect over time. It's beautiful. to see how, and I so am tempted to like want to talk about my clients, but you asked me speak for myself is, you know, I have had moments where I pinch myself and I have tears of joy and gratitude that I've gotten to design my work life and life the way that I have, where I didn't dream to have the kind of results my business has had, the kind of autonomy that I have. In my career, like I thought these things would start happening, and I really didn't know until I was like 20 years older than I am now. Like, you know, and that was 10 like 10 years ago when I was starting to see like, wait, I can do I can have this? I can have I can create and and start building something like this in two years? Like what? Like, so it was that like where I was starting to realize.

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Jenna: Much I was underestimating what I was capable of, and how coaching was a vehicle and a bridge for me to truly not just like dream big and make it all like so you can motivate yourself, and but it's fluff, but like truly, like if the coach is good, they will help you to figure out how to make that happen. and and so yeah, I mean there's the results side and

Chris: Hm.

Jenna: Like on paper and relationships and like me as a person. Yeah.

Chris: That's marvelous. In fact, you had just talked about that where one of the big things was that they underestimated themselves, that owners underestimated themselves and and you kind of got to that place where you maybe had underestimated yourself and what you couldn't could be capable of and now now you've done that. That's that's marvelous. That's wonderful. I I guess a question that I would have for you is do you have any questions for me? as a as a as a fellow professional or from a marketing perspective or from a from a company that works with small businesses.

Jenna: Yeah, I love that. I so I could like chat with you until the cows come home, like around like asking you a question. Like you do realize that's like a slippery slope for a coach because it's like, I could come up with all kinds of questions. so I let me think about this for a moment because you know, I want to be mindful of time. And if there was like a nuclear question, like a a significant question, what might it be? So

Chris: Nice. Perfect.

Chris: huh.

Jenna: From a I'll say like a messaging standpoint, right? What do you see that most business owners lose sight of modeling in their messaging?

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Chris: That's a wonderful question. Thank you for asking. Most business owners look at a lot of what competitors are saying, or they go to Chat GPT and they describe their business and they say, I need a positioning statement or I need something that is, you know, gonna hook somebody and grab attention, etc. And I think what most business owners fail to recognize is that as a business owner, like again. Businesses aren't run by pickles or fire hydrants, they're run by people. And business owners usually have the business as a reflection of their own personality, of the owner's personality. And so business owners should think about just themselves and their own unique, authentic voice and who they are. and speak in that way, right? Instead of trying to be a brand that they're not, instead of trying to be It's either overly cool, but they're not really cool, but that's okay. It's okay if they're not cool, if they're informative, and if they're neutral speaking, and if they're you know, knowledgeable about what they're doing, that's okay. Speak about it that way. Right? Being as authentic as possible to their own true voice, which is hard to do. It's hard to get to the place where you would feel comfortable just talking about your business and yourself. But if you can, typically that's the strongest message.

Jenna: Yeah, I love that. And what do you find is the biggest inhibition or hurdle to why that's a challenge for most business owners?

Chris: I think that they are thinking too much about what other businesses are doing. And they're trying to Right, you know, and you know, a lot of people and business coaches and business books will say, Look at the business that's doing what you want to do and emulate them. Totally understand that, right? I totally understand why that's a yen to do that, right?

Jenna: Mm-hmm. Like they're competitors, like you said.

Chris: And that's helpful in some ways, but it can also be a trap like you'd mentioned, because then you're following someone else's path and try instead of trying to follow your own path and make your own path. Right. So if I'm a business owner, it takes a lot of it takes a lot of courage to be comfortable with yourself as a person and as a business. And then so I think that's why they block themselves from getting there. And who knows, Jenna, maybe to help themselves, maybe they should hire a business coach.

Jenna: Yes.

Jenna: There you go. Perhaps. A way to like bring that in.

Chris: Perhaps. Well, you've been absolutely marvelous. I'm so glad that you spent the time with us. Thank you so much.

Jenna: Thank you. This has been an absolute pleasure. I really appreciate you inviting me and it was just a joy to have the conversation.

Chris: Wonderful. Have a great day today. Bye bye.

Jenna: You too, thank you. Bye.