Building a Culture That Scales with Joy Gendusa

Podcast

Episode Transcript

Here's the transcription below of today's episode, a conversation between host Chris Foster and Joy Gendusa, founder and CEO of PostcardMania, about action, responsibility, hiring, and building a company culture that can grow without losing what makes it special.

Note: This transcription has been formatted from the original episode transcript for readability.

Transcript

Joy: Yeah, I wasn't I was never a very self-reflective person. I'm not now either. I was never one of those introspective trying to figure out why I do certain things. I mean I I was more like busy, busy, busy. Sure. Busy trying to survive.

Chris: Well you know what though, I think so so often you get caught up in, you know, people say I've got these big visions or I have this vision of a napkin I'm drawing in the bar and this is my business, right? Yeah. Versus versus action. Right. Right? Taking action. And and I guess as you started to scale this business, were you thinking, man, I've got to figure out my lease and I've got to figure out my payroll this month versus I've got this big vision of this big broad company.

Joy: I never had a vision. I'll tell you and and honestly when I knew I wanted to work with small businesses, and it wasn't because I loved small businesses, it was because I never wanted to be owned by a big business. I didn't want one client to determine my future. I did not like that. Well it's a very precarious place. I mean there are there are companies where you know most of their revenue is determined by a client. I know. And that's a very scary place for a business to be. I know, I know. My husband's business was like that. He had giant banks as clients.

Joy: Anyway, so I didn't want to be like that. So I did learn to love this my clients. I and that's when I got really into like, my gosh, I've got to help these guys. Sure. And I started a blog before the word blog existed. Uh-huh. I started documenting everything I was learning. That's the book I have. When I what that my book is really a compilation of everything that I wrote and then I hired a ghostwriter to put the chapters together and decide what chapter should be where. Uh-huh. Yeah. And he was great. Yeah. but I wrote the book. Just I wrote the chapters.

Joy: I just felt like, gosh, these these guys need so much help. Well, you know, small business is so interesting because they've either through a passion or through a family or through circumstances, they start their own and there are so many things that a small business doesn't know when they get into it. Can I say something about that? I'm glad I didn't know a lot of things because if I knew what I know now, I don't I think it would have been too overwhelming and daunting. Sure. And I feel like that's why a lot of entrepreneurs are not from academia.

Joy: Because they know you know too much, you academia people. You know where all the pitfalls are, where you can fail. You know, I I didn't have I I kind of was my I knew that if I wasn't growing, I was shrinking. Right. And that comes from the Hubbard Management system. It also comes from life, right?

Chris: And that actually is what I think is so interesting about business. What I But I didn't learn it from life. Right. No, I get you. No, I get you. But what I find interesting about life is that it's never st it never stays still. It always changes.

Chris: Changes, right? There is a growth and there are maturities of everything. And businesses are a collective, you know, unit of people, right? It's they're not made by fire hydrants or pickles, it's people, right? And people grow and people change and people mature. So businesses do the same and they kind of grow and evolve. And so as you started to scale this and you said, Well, this is the action I want versus the vision I have,

Chris: Do you find that that action-oriented approach has been the successful path?

Joy: I know. It's the only business I've ever had. You know, I mean I I don't I wouldn't be able to answer that question honestly, 'cause I only have my one experience, which is postcard mania. I mean I have other I have another little business now and I have you know, I've the other DM two point and that kind of thing. But but this is really the only path I've ever taken. I've never went and studied business I've you know, I've listened to books on you know, Audible and I while I ride my bike and I'm like some of them I'm like, I wow, we really we did that, you know, like building a story brand, you know that I was like, This is this is what we did with Postcard Mania and I never knew that that was something that I was doing until I listened to that book. Mm-hmm.

Joy: So I've you know, so my journey is very unusual because people would ask me like who are your mentors and who did you, you know, learn from? And really just like my husband, my current husband who I've been with for twenty four years, is a great consultant for me. Great. but I didn't really I it was i I feel that I have an innate ability that I didn't learn this lifetime.

Chris: Right. It revealed itself.

Joy: It revealed itself. Right. It revealed itself. And we talked earlier about it, where And I'm not perfect at it by any stretch of the imagination. Well well no no human's perfect, so no business owner's gonna be perfect. But I mean I probably could have grown way f more if I took money from someone and did all that stuff. I I don't know, that's a tough thing.

Chris: So just it's it's self funded, right? and so the but I think that that's actually critical to a sense of hustle. I think that's critical to a sense of, hey guys, this is us. It's not anyone else. I'm not beholden to someone else. Yeah. Right. There's also in some f some folks maybe a cushion that comes and the security that comes where if you don't have that security you're more apt to work a little bit harder. Right?

Joy: I was more risky 'cause I had nothing to lose too. Sure. I was broke. I was married to a guitar player slash teacher. Right. Who had no he was a he was actually a programmer and played guitar on the weekends and nights and but then he wasn't it was my husband he wasn't happy doing programming and I wanted a happy husband. Sure. So I said why don't you just play guitar and I'll figure out how to make money and he was like cool thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Yeah so that marriage lasted ten years.

Chris: But it's almost like you know necessity is the mother of invention, right? You actually have to do it. And so but you're coming at that sense of survival. With I think though, not an entrepreneurial background, but from a creative and designer background.

Joy: But my dad was an entrepreneur.

Chris: That's what I was gonna ask. Did that come from somewhere in the family? Did you have a model for that outside of books and the like?

Joy: My dad left the house at six AM every day and he came home at six PM. And he went to his office and he did whatever he did at his office. He was a transportation broker, I'd come to find out, I learned. And I did work for him. He goes to the office, whatever that is.

Joy: And it was in Queens, New York, and I did go to him one summer. I went and worked for him, and it was hilarious the whole thing was hilarious to me. I was like, why would anyone want to do this? It was like smelly in there. I guess people smoked it indoors back then. My dad wasn't a smoker, but it to me, I was like, ew. But anyway, but my dad, I didn't know where the roast beef came from. I c grew up very privileged. Yeah. My we weren't rich by any I I'm more successful than my dad was, but didn't want for anything. My I wasn't spoiled.

Chris: But also too, you saw your dad leave at six and come home at six. So you saw hard work.

Joy: I definitely saw hard work. for whatever reason I'm a hard worker. Yeah, you know I don't know why. You know, I think it's interesting it's interesting.

Chris: I don't know why that happens to folks either, right? I don't know if it's genetic, there's a predisposition, or if it's modeled. So my dad worked extremely long hours. Mm-hmm. and I've always worked. I just that's just what you do. You just work hard because that's what everybody does. And and you get to a place where it feels weird if it if you don't.

Joy: Well for me, I know, and this comes from the Hubbard Management System, that production is the basis of morale. So I don't like to take credit for anything that's not mine. That's sure from there. So pr I knew that production is the basis of morale. And when I'm unproductive, my morale is crappy. Right. It's really low. Yeah. I go, Ugh, I'm bored, I don't want to do anything, I don't know you know, I need to be producing something. I need I've already worked myself out of a job at Postcard Mania once. I'm back on post. I mean I never left, left, left. But if the staffs are going up, I just leave it the heck alone. Sure. You know? And I and they needed me to come back this year. And I'm back.

Joy: And they would think that I never left, you know, you could ask ask them I they probably think I'm gone now 'cause I'm in Georgia all the time.

Chris: But it's interesting though that you talk about that natural sense of, you know, or on the business side where Hubbard codified the phrase of, you know, production is driver of morale. But there's a human quality of being industrious. Of course. Right? And the people feel better about themselves if they're industrious if they're productive, right? You know, the lazy people aren't really the happiest people.

Chris: Because they know that they should be doing something more and that we're producing creatures, right? We do this.

Joy: It's true. And you can't, and people who are on the dole are not happy.

Chris: Correct, because they don't want to be that. Right. And so what that does, though, and I want to now, this is a perfect segue into this next part of the conversation, is what I'd call the authentic brand culture that's created within the organization. It's very authentic. I

Joy: It's very authentic. It's so authentic. And and what happens is It was never planned. Right. And this is A, not planned. And but, as you start getting more employees, suddenly you go from ten employees and then you have twenty five employees, then you got thirty five employees. Yeah.

Joy: I mean I can tell you something, when we went we went from seven to eleven overnight. Right. And I felt incredibly uncomfortable speaking in front of eleven people.

Chris: Yes, you know, and one of the questions I was going to ask, and we'll save this for later, because I want to ask I was I even wrote it down, so it's so funny you say that. I was gonna ask you to give the advice to a small business that has eight employees and going to eleven employees and what they should be looking for. So you have this interesting break point of seven to eleven employees and suddenly that became more than ten.

Joy: I was I had I was at staff meeting. I remember we we you know we do a weekly staff meeting here, a live weekly staff meeting, and we have a very small amount of remote staff, you being one of them. And so we do have a amazing And it's great to live stream it. Yeah, we live stream it on YouTube. Yeah. I love watching it. I know I like watching it too when I'm in Georgia. But It was, you know, we do staff meeting every single week, Mondays, and this was my staff meeting and I remember thinking, How am I how do I have this many people here?

Joy: To say like I got introverted and I'm not introverted.

Chris: Sure. Well also too it might have been y where you recognize that suddenly there's there's scale right this right scale?

Joy: I didn't even know that word.

Chris: Of no I know you didn't know the word but it happened. But it was there. It was there right in front of you 'cause you went from seven to eleven. Well gosh joy, eleven people that's almost close to fourteen which means you doubled in size. Exactly, right? That's the reaction you have.

Joy: I know and I didn't I didn't have in because I had at that point, I think that's when I realized I have something to lose. And not that I had anything to lose, because we weren't profitable for a while. But it was the collective had something to lose. It was it was more that like now I'm responsible for that person's salary and that person's salary. I need to make sure that I make the right decisions so that we don't if I'm not growing, I'm shrinking. And if I'm shrinking, I have to lose people. And I cannot lose people.

Joy: So that's a huge motivator for me to scale, quote unquote. It's like if you're not if you're not growing you're shrinking. And if I'm shrinking, I'm harming people who work for me. Yeah. And that's that's probably it in a nutshell. We can end this now.

Chris: But i it goes back to a couple things. A your sense of responsibility, your nurturing core where the the sense of I am now not just responsible for you, but I want to be responsible for you. Right.

Chris: And with that is the burden, is the the motivator to keep the business thriving and to keep the business. It's always the the people. It's always the people. And so it's interesting that, you know, you know, I feel that I've I've been a PostcardMania for about a month and a half…

Joy: He's our newest hire.

Chris: Outstanding. But what I feel in the business is this interesting tension, which isn't a bad word, it's just a tension between a familial environment but a real professional environment. So there's this thing called the Netflix Culture Deck. I don't know if you've heard of it.

Joy: Never heard of it.

Chris: So it's on it's on SlideShare. So if you go to Google, do Netflix Culture Deck Slide Share, the HR person of Netflix shared this to the world. Wow. To show what Netflix was thinking about when they went public. So Netflix, as you guys remember, used to mail DVDs in the mail. Yeah. And then they did a big transition and they had this big moment in their career or in the in the course of their business where they were moving to a place and they couldn't bring everybody with them because there were folks who just couldn't quite make that leap.

Joy: That has happened at Postcard Mania.

Chris: And I'm gonna ask you about that. And so the story for Netflix was who are we? Are we a little league team with a bunch of family members or are we a pro team with a bunch of all stars and we only want to hire all stars. Right. So what I find interesting about the Postcard Mania environment is that there's this tension between a familial environment because it feels like a family business and it is a family business.

Chris: Business. We have whole families working for us. And there's also a group of all-stars. They're pros. They're really, really good at what they do. I think that's an interesting tension. But before we get to that, at some point you must have said as we start growing, there's certain people that can't quite grow with us, and certain people who do grow with us.

Joy: Or have grown with the business and I never say anything. It's just a natural occurrence. It's just a it just has occurred that way. You get to a certain point, what I've noticed is some people can't handle power. If they get too much power they become less kind or less I like they can't handle it in a positive way.

Chris: That's interesting.

Joy: And we won't ha we have a no office politics, no negative chatter policy at postcard mania. I don't want anyone to ever feel like they're being targeted or that there's clicks. This is not high school. I I I started this business partly because I hate office politics and I saw it every single place I worked. Mm-hmm. And I thought, I'm gonna just have my own company and we're not gonna we're gonna have that I'm never gonna have allow that in my company. And I I would say probably close to four hundred people, I think it's pretty it's still pretty good. I'm sure it happens and I don't know about it.

Chris: Well, I can tell you that in the intro videos I loved your intro video 'cause all the executives say welcome to Postcard Mania and your request was if you see any chatter or negativity, just stop it and you're gonna be the responsible for the policing this and you actually in that request say you're the carrier of the culture. yeah. I don't say those words.

Chris: You're doing for every employee is you're giving us the gift of carrying the flag of the culture.

Joy: I love that you know how to take everything that I've done and figure out what it's called. I don't know what anything's called.

Chris: No, but but it's there, which I love. And and I think that, you know, because the responsibility for every employee is to keep the culture at four hundred people the same it was at forty people, the same it was at four people. Yeah. And 'cause it can't come directly from one person, although it has come from you. Right? I mean that's the the through line of the culture comes from you, the founder. Yeah. And then you hire people who preserve and protect that culture.

Joy: We do our best. And those that cannot don't last. Sure. If there it's either too positive here for we once had somebody walk out. It's too positive. We once had somebody leave after a staff meeting and never come back. Like we hired them, they worked for a day. It was like staff meeting was Monday. They came to staff meeting and they left and never came back. I remember this happening years ago. Maybe we had 30 staff. We had the most fun staff meetings when we were much smaller too. Uh-huh. It's harder to make a fun staff meeting feel like everybody's like, get me out of here. I have work to do. But we try. And our staff meetings were such a hoot. And I this person was probably like, This place is whack. I'm out of here.

Chris: That's hilarious.

Joy: We used to be incredibly politically incorrect, incredibly vulgar. Uh-huh. We had I can tell you stories that I can't even believe. Now I am so policed by my VPHR and Melissa. Melissa you're like she's Joe, you can't say that, George. You can't do that. Exactly. We have these guys one time,

Joy: Probably in 2010 we did a girls of postcard mania calendar. Which was awesome by the way. It's fantastic. Yes, and it's not sexist at all. It's it's it's excellent. It's beautiful. We did have a few clients feel that it was inappropriate. Uh-huh. We sent it to her. Yeah, and and I was just like, Whatever. I'm a woman. How I'm a woman. I'm not I'm just anyway, it's a great calendar. The boys next year made a joke calendar that was hilarious. Yes. But they didn't use all the photos that

Joy: Showed me the outtakes. They had photos of like one guy who was in a box and that's all he was wearing. He was holding the box around his sneak. You know, yeah. I mean they did crazy, crazy things. You know, Anthony, who's my COO now, very serious, very professional person, he used to be in charge of we call it the warehouse because it was pre-before we printed in-house. They just I don't know what they did in there, they did all the shipping and inventory and whatever they did. And we had mail machines. I think we had mail machines. And we had this guy who worked for us and then he got a real finished school, got a real job in an insurance company, and he used to come back to Postcard Mania for his own for his daily constitution at lunchtime. That's awesome. And that one time and they would he would come in and be like, I'm here to use the bathroom. Right. And he'd use the bathroom. And the guys took they knew he was coming and they took the pins out of the Yes they did. They took the pins out of the hinges on the door.

Joy: We had crazy shenanigans happening. I bet if you ever interview Anthony, there are shenanigans that I don't even know about. Sure. Yeah. That's but that builds a culture. Yeah, and we and we have to be we have to be like way less cuckoo manga now. Yeah. I think we could have been a sitcom at one time.

Chris: Right. I get it. I get it. But it but that's part of the thing when you scale, you've got other responsibilities, you've got more people, you've got sensitive and the world has changed.

Joy: The world changed. Everybody's sensitive. Everybody's so sensitive. Right. You know, and I'm not sensitive. Like anybody can make fun of me.

Joy: Me about anything and I don't care, you know, but people are very, very sensitive these days. And it's ch it's it's changed a bit.

Chris: But and what's what I think is is fascinating about this culture though is the not just the playfulness part of it, because it's playful, right? There's a playful nature to the culture which you never want to lose. But along with the playfulness, there's this other side of performance where everyone not only holds each other accountable for keeping the culture, but they hold each other accountable for their performance because everybody is performing. Yeah.

Joy: I don't know all the staff meetings that you've been to. You've been to everyone since you started

Chris: I've watched every one.

Joy: What I love is when I go to staff meeting and Desiree, like will my my VP of VIP marketing, she'll get up and really acknowledge the production guys and the people who are making the work getting it out on time perfectly and what it takes for them to do that.

Chris: And how we all have a dedication to the customer. We have a dedication to each other.

Joy: Yeah. It's a really, it's really frickin' amazing, amazing group. I mean, I am so proud of this group. It blows my mind.

Chris: Yeah, well, and it makes sense because you created that as the as the sense of it at the beginning, where we're all a team, I'm responsible for you all, but you're also all responsible for each other. And so, you know, the best teams are in it for the group. 100%. Not for themselves.

Joy: And you know, that's a that's a that's one of the things from growing this big. I I wish I could come up with some kind of an education. I want all the staff to understand how business works and how profits work. Because if we're not profitable, there's no job. There's no more business. It's I don't ever want it to become, and I feel like it has a little bit like the man. I'm the man, you know.

Joy: I'm like there's i like somehow I'm getting super rich but everybody else is is, you know, being s shit on or something. It's not the case, you know. I le I leave the bulk of the revenue in the company. Sure. I I need it there for times like COVID. Sure. Where I didn't lay off anybody.

Chris: Which is awesome.

Joy: But they don't understand that at this size it is so easy to become unprofitable.

Chris: Correct.

Joy: And I wish I could pay everybody so much money. I mean you know, and it's really hard. I want them I need guys to understand the more educated they become as marketers, the more valuable they become to postcard mania and and our clients. And the customers. And and that's how they can it they need to understand the circle of life. Maybe they should just watch the Lion King again!

Chris: But I think what's interesting about that is you pull the people into the organizational understanding of how businesses actually work, how profits actually work. And I guess a question that I would have for you that a small business watching this would ask is, you know, as you started to build that culture up, what did you do to ensure that the team was in it for each other? How did you make sure that the team was collaborative in nature and that their really their focus was on the greater good, not just themselves?

Joy: It's in the hiring. Okay. It's definitely in the hiring because we ask very specific questions that will bring out that person's basic personality. Okay. you were not hired that way because I just wanted you to be you know what I mean? We bypassed the system with yours.

Chris: I get it.

Joy: However, legally I'm supposed to have everybody get asked the exact same questions. So the questions we will ask what is your most proud accomplishment?

Chris: Great question.

Joy: I don't care if it's raising my children if that's the answer to the question. Yeah. You have to have one. Sometimes people people are stumped by that question and not hiring you. If you don't have something you're proud of by the time you're looking for a job, this is not the place for you. Right. So that's a question. we ask questions about, tell me what your thoughts are on work life balance. Now, I was born in the sixties. It was work work balance.

Chris: Exactly. Your dad went at six, came home. He came home at six. My dad worked eighty hours a week.

Joy: Right. And you know, and my mom burned dinner every night for him. So when yeah, that's another story. He s she stopped cooking when I was twelve. But anyway, she was done every with everybody complaining.

Joy: So work is really important to me. So there's a lot of generalities that go around like today's youth don't know what work is. Well they've been saying that since like the twenties. Forever. Forever and ever. There are always people that feel that work is not important and that they you know, if you watch if you scroll TikTok, it's the what's in it for me right thing. And that's what you see and that's what goes viral. What's in it for me, what's in it for me? No, we hire some amazing young people that have incredible work ethics that come from More or less, they've either seen hard work or they know that they're gonna they don't want what they came from and they're going to work hard. And that's in the hiring. And you can definitely ask very specific questions. I don't have them all on top of my head because I haven't done it myself, but I had a big part in writing those questions.

Chris: Oriented in their belief structure. Right. Right? Oriented in their belief about themselves, oriented in their belief about what they want to be a part of. Right? Because I think that that also not only does it like a magnet to pull people who are ambitious and have that balance between playfulness and performance into the company. But it also shields us from people who wouldn't fit, right? Because you don't get the folks in who don't want to be a part of something more than themselves, right?

Joy: Right. And I think that that's part of it too. Where I mean I feel like we we definitely have people here that are in it for themselves and they're of course. And yeah, I we're at four hundred people and I can't interview all of them. Of course. And I wish I could. But there is some wonderful, wonderful superstars. And if I get hold of those people and find out about them, they el get elevated in this company. You know who's a great example? Janeen. Sure. She is spectacular. She is a great designer, but aside from that, she's a great administrator and a great educator. And she has the most beautiful attitude. And I just she reports directly to me. Yeah. She started here as a graphic designer, not that many years ago. And then she became our nighttime supervisor. Okay. So she was designing and supervising, but second shift, which sucks. but she did it. Yeah. You know, and she excelled at it. And then I started having her design things for my other businesses and my other little things because Matt got is so busy. Matt, you know, Matt is our designer. Postcard mania. Matt designs for postcard mania's marketing.

Joy: He's done all the websites. I can't bother Matt. Everybody bothers Matt.

Chris: Correct. I bother Matt.

Joy: Yeah. Everybody bother and he gets it done. So I was like, let me just bother Janeen because these are things that I don't want Matt rolling his eyes at me behind my back. So I figured let me take someone more you know, ambitiously excited. Yeah, but here's the thing that's interesting is that you're able to see those people who have that ambition, that have that spark.

Chris: And also I think that there's an interesting part about working in the business world where and it applies in other places in the world too, where belief is such a critical component to the action.

Chris: First, right, if you believe that you can do this or you believe that you can achieve or believe that you can be a part of something better and motivates you to do the right actions to follow up on that belief.

Joy: Yeah. Right? You know because I feel like everybody's fully responsible for their own condition in life and that they can make whatever they want of whatever opportunity or they can make lemonade or lemons. They can they it's up to them. So they can come here and see all the things that are not perfect about PostcardMania, and they could kind of be annoyed about it and and decide that they're annoyed and this place is not as good as I thought it was gonna be, and da-da-da-da-da. And then you have people that can see how much care the senior execs put into making this a great place to work. It takes work to make a place a great place to work. 100%. And it's not easy, and we can't make everybody happy all of the time. But we're trying, and the people who see that and know that we care so much about them and they go, Wow, I wanna be part of something like that.

Chris: Right. It's their decision. And so that ultimately right, it's their decision and it pulls it pulls them into the into the culture. And so what I what I love about the culture is that it's getting to this really interesting interchange of energy and connection between the business and the customers. So one of the reasons why we talk about education and really promote education to the small businesses is that A we know we because we were a small business, but we've helped so many. We've helped so many. We've seen it work for so many other small businesses. And the question is why wait? Help us, let us help you, like have that sense of belief to come in and work with us because we can help. We've done it. We've done it before for a hundred and thirty thousand folks. And I think that that sense of wanting to help those businesses permeates in the culture. I think the culture is really driven towards not only helping each other out, but extending that towards our customers.

Joy: I know and isn't this when you hear the acknowledgments at staff meeting about, you know, the how they're so they're working so hard to help that customer.

Chris: Exactly. And they're acknowledging each other for helping. Helping the customer.

Joy: Yeah. It's really it makes me so proud.

Chris: Yeah. It it should. It should make you proud. It makes it makes me proud to be a part of it, right? And that this is the collective good that we're promoting. And so I think from a culture perspective, you know, if if I'm a if I'm a small business owner watching this, what would you say would be a maxim which is kind of a saying or a truth. You have a maxim about building culture and protecting culture in their team.

Joy: It starts from the top and I believe that whoever is in charge has to have a lot of love in their heart for the people that are working for them and not look at the bad things about them. Nobody is perfect.

Joy: And you know what? I'm gonna back it up a little bit. You have to hire people that really care for your business and hiring is so important. But once you have someone that's really good, it's up to you as the owner to create an environment where they can thrive. And if you can't do that, you're always gonna be miserable with staff.

Joy: That you know that that's the thing that I see, like people have said to me, I never want to have staff. I never want to have staff, staff is the worst part of my business. Staff, staff, staff. People can't stand having staff and all the issues that come with staff. And there are a lot of issues. The more the more staff you have, the more issues there are. Of course. Well, the complexity of the dynamics grows. So when you We didn't even have an HR until we had like a hundred people. Sure. We didn't even have an HR.

Chris: And then you have three, then you have four. And suddenly you've got multiple relationships. And then you've got eight. Then it quadruples and exponentially grows in terms of all the different relationships that have to be managed. So you as owner can't manage all those relationships. The team has to manage those relationships.

Joy: I feel like the owner manages it when there's when the team is like 11 to 20 people. The owner, you know, and I also think that having an org board and having very specific roles for each person and what the responsibility is.

Joy: Responsibility puts order in in the business and makes people not feel like a chicken without a head because they have their role that they have to do. I think that's really helpful. Yeah. we need to take break. We'll take a break.